In my quest to get Elephants for my army, I began to look at the Carthaginians as a base for my Olympian army.

Funnily enough, it works quite well, and the background will fit well into Wargods mythos.

1. Carthage was founded just before the fall of Troy by Queen Dido and gave sanctuary to Aeneas before he left for Italy (and according the Aeneid) committed suicide after he left.

2. Ba'al Harrmon was the god of Tyre and Carthage, and is equated to Cronus, There is one tradition that Cronus was released from Tartarus and became the King of Latium (in Italy), which influences the Phoenician.

3. His wife is Tanit, who is considered in Egypt as Neith a war goddess (and a healer and adventurer by the Carthaginians).

4. Carthage was tolerant of most religions, and conceivably allow demigods of Olympus and harbinger of Aeygptus.

5. Melqart is associated as the Carthaginian version of Hercules and is the city protector.

6. Child sacrifice for a dark aspect.

7. Reliant of mercenaries and local troops with a small core of Carthage troops.

8. ELEPHANTS!!!!

What do other people think?

Sounds pretty cool to me.

Very Cool!

I'm currently reading "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton & just finished reading the story of Aeneas.

Going by Carthage's early history sounds like their version of warband leaders could be Harb. or Demi. The idea of a Phalanx supported by elephants sounds awesome!

Also, going by Aegyptus fluff, the EOD come from the west, so maybe much of Carthage is being ravaged by the EOD. Could make some Anubi style troops or specialists that look Greek!

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Slayer of the Minotaur Lord of Knossos (S.D. '10), Savior of Calydon (S.D. '11)

Further research, Tanit was also a goddess of death (in a good way).

If the fluff can be manipulated, Carthage was protected by Tanit and Melqart from the eaters.

Will need to work out how to work Ba'al, if he was Cronus, it will mean the Greeks have issues with Carthage. Given that they did (there was a war between Hellas and Carthage around the same time as Xerxes invasion of Greece, and there is hints that there was Persian support).

I suppose the Titan god makes Carthage a bad guy state. Would have to work in the kiddy sacrifice to make it badder (sacrafice a baby for a Greek Altar like buff for the army).

Oh sure, it's all great fun for Carthage until the Romans come along and they bring their toys

Wyatt

LoL Great pic

Carthage is a very interesting society that has great and rich mythology behind it. I have always viewed it as a sort of blend of Greek and Egyptian myth. It is an area that lends itself to great campaigns (see actual world history). I would say that you have come up with a spectacular idea and should run with it.

Interesting note: Some historians believe that certain large Roman sects thought that the destruction of Carthage damned Rome as they were children of the same gods and would be punished for their betrayal.

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Why is it that necromancy never turns out well?

HA! I love that picture, Wyatt.

This sounds like a great idea for an army, Vordams.

-Alex

Here is my first pass at Carthaginian rules. This has not been playtested whatsoever, so point values and powers are only initial thoughts at the moment

Wargods of Carthage

From the days of Queen Dido, the strength of Carthage has been its ships and merchants. Carthaginian merchantmen travel the length and breadth of the Mediterranean Sea and beyond, trading the wealth of the Antediluvian world and bring wealth and power to Carthage.

But yet Carthage is not at peace. The dead swept through the lands of Carthage and its clients from the west, and pockets of their evil still exist in the south and elsewhere. The Hellenes have fought a massive war with our brethren in Troy and now seek to compete with Carthage’s trade and influences in Sicily and the Greek and Phoenician city states in Asia Minor. And to the east, the conflicts with the tribes of Aegyptus threaten trade, and the safety of Carthage itself with its incessant conflict.

But with the gods, and the fleet of ships and the gold it brings, Carthage will meet the threats against them. Where the ships can not serve Carthage, gold can, and Carthage will buy the troops needed to defend the city from all threats, internal and external….

Carthaginian Warband.

The Carthaginians traditionally had a poor internal army. While most of the officer corps came from the City and other Carthaginian colonies, the rank and file was generally of a lower quality. This was partly due to the fleet, where the constant demand for manpower and the lucrative rewards on offer drew away people who in other cities would have been available for military service.

As a result, Carthaginian soldiers are less disciplined than other humans. Generally Carthaginian formations fought in the greek style and equipment, but are not capable of forming the Phalanx formation.

Mv Wnd #Att Att Def Mis Arc Disc PTS Citizen 5 1 1 4 4 4 5 4 8 Champion 5 2 1 5 5 5 5 5 22 Hero 5 3 2 6 6 6 6 6 44

However, Carthage had client states it could draw troops from. Tribes from Numidia and other North African areas are available to be drafted into a Carthaginian warband. The stats and equipment list is as the Asar list in the main rulebook.

Mercenaries

Money has a power to command, and Carthage is well versed in that style of command. Carthage is willing to raise mercenary formations for its defence.

A warband may use any core troop type (except those who discipline rating prevents it from forming any formation apart from mob) from rulebook with the following changes.

A Carthaginian warband with mercenaries must have a mercenary Recruiter in its warband.

Mv Wnd #Att Att Def Mis Arc Disc PTS Mercenary Recruiter 5 3 2 6 6 6 6 7 60

Any warband not bought as Carthage Citizens or Asar (client states) gains a +1 Disc for Discipline tests when attacking an enemy unit, however they also receive a -1 for all route tests and rallying tests. If the Mercenary Recruiter is killed, the discipline test modifier becomes -2. If a unit if forced by the decrease to Disc to form a mob, it has to as per the rules.

You may not recruit Eater of the Dead, Nekharu or any unit designated dark or Infamous.

This is to reflect that Mercenary units are eager to fight for pillage and other rewards, but tend to be less willing to take casualties.

The Mercenary Recruiter also allows recruiting of units that would generally not be allowed under p162 of the main rules. Generally the threat of not getting paid overrides the distaste of working with a unit you generally despise. At the referees discretion, if a recruiter dies, Heru and Typhon units, (or any Olympus city states who generally seek any excuse to attack each other) will seek to engage each other. This is not allowed in competition games.

A Mercenary Recruiter also allows the recruiting of the following specialists:

Asar Spy Khemru Beast Maser (either as Khemru or as Numidians. Stats will be the same) Strategos (Either Spartian or from Carthage proper. Stats will be the same) Titan Hunter Minatours??? Satyrs????

minotaurs listed infamous only from memory so would probably be auto outted re satyrs not sure

The Minotaurs are specialists for the Cretan Pirates (who are infamous)- if you have the Pirates you can have a Minotaur-- BUT if you're not allowed infamous units then you can't get the pirates, so no Minotaur...

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http://minismithsforge.blogspot.com/ http://shefdumabuki.blogspot.com/

CBP3,

Actually, the most recent Croc Tales #6 made the further distinction that only Infamous Demigods can field Minotaurs and omitted the reference to Cretan Pirates or the necessity to have a unit of them in your warband.

Respectfully, KEVIN

With those Cretans from Sparta........oh wait.....make that the Spartans at Crete!

A carthage army is great idea. I'd support this. Perhaps eventually Crodile can do new arms base on other wonderful nations of history

Wargods of Rome?-Can't have Greeks without Romans :) Wargods of Africa ? Such a rich place of myth and warriors Wargods of India? So many gods and so many great stories of heroism. Wargods of the Jade Heaven. China how can a land of 10000 gods and kung fu be wrong Wargods of Levant: David and Goliath epic :) Wargods of America. Aztecs,Mayans and NAtive Americans whats not to like.

We thats my 2 cents. Still great idea can't wait to see more.

A friend of mine is one of the few experts on ancient Phoenicia in the world and a WarGods of Carthage would have him playing in an instant so I very much approve. On the other hand, he'd probably burst a blood vessel at the suggestion that Carthage relied on mercenaries, didn't utilise the phalanx, or that it's a blend of Greek and Egyptian myth.

Poeni Citizen infantry could and did form phalanx, albeit not likely of the quality that traditional Greek city-states fielded, and there wouldn't be very many of them. The Liby-Phoenician (African) infantry, however, provided phalanx formations that were of excellent quality, and you can find them in nearly all the Carthaginian armies, in addition to Greek "mercenary" phalanxes.

Would be hard to do this without Numidian cavalry; they were another defining characteristic of most Carthaginian forces. Maybe the rules for Amazonian cavalry might be adaptable? With no armor?

Mythos-wise, like most Mediterranean civilizations there was a degree of syncretism between cultures (the Melqart/Hercules ties is an excellent point). Would be cool to see what their deities would look like fleshed out, with a distinctly Phoenician feel to them.

This is a great idea, Voradams. Would love to see this done. Maybe there could be a WarGods of Carthage book like the Hyperborea one someday. But one thing at a time, I guess.

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Sometimes the gods bless you in the morning and curse you in the afternoon.

Mercenary is probably a fair designation for the Greek hoplites that served in Carthaginian armies. The North African troops are auxilliaries rather than mercenaries. To see the Carthaginian army as heavily reliant on mercenaries would mean the armies of the late Roman Republic were also heavily reliant on mercenaries too.